Thursday, July 2, 2009

I am starting to write this blog post and wondering how it will turn out. I have an idea to start with, but I’ll probably end up straying far off topic into new topics. So I have no clue whether this will be a really long post or a pretty short one.
First of all, I want to say that I hope what I have to say does not offend any of my readership. I don’t want to give any wrong impressions here—I am not out to criticize or condemn any one who reads here. Having said that, I will continue without holding back.
The only word I can think of to begin my rant with is sorry; or maybe distressed or saddened. Sorry for the decisions that my friends are making. Not all are friends, some are merely acquaintances, and some are people who I’ve never really liked. But it’s all the same; poor decisions, bad decisions.
The first thing in specific that saddens me is good relatively-strong Christians (or at least to all appearances) who go to churches that teach mostly fluff and half-truths. Churches that do not teach a person to defend their faith against attacks. Churches that teach that we have to do something to get salvation. [Side note: This includes churches that teach that it is up to Us to reject or accept Christ and His Grace. This doctrine does not give God all his proper power, instead, it give Us power over God to reject or accept Him if we want.] Churches that do not take firm stands on issues in the culture such as evolution, abortion, homosexuality, politics, economics, education, etc. [Side note: Religion includes all of these issues and more; religion creates culture.] Churches whose worship looks more like a “youth group” than a time to worship and learn of God. It is so sad to see good friends and well-meaning Christians going to these kinds of churches. Sometimes I wonder why they can’t see why these people, people who you would think are rational enough to think through things, just going along with whatever everybody else believes, or just believing what they are told. What is the solution to this? Well, of course I would say everybody should come to my church. But then, everybody else could say this too. Of course I’m biased. But I have to say, my family and I are truly blessed to be in such a wonderful church body with such a wonderful pastor. [Side note: Wonderful is not a sufficient adjective to describe how wonderful our pastor actually is. Shameless plug here for his blog – www.ironink.org ] I was talking to one of my best friends the other day whom I haven’t seen in quite a while and she told me that they were going to a new church. She said that she was going through a time of “making her faith her own” and that the church that they had been going to was not “relevant” enough for them. She said this new church was just so wonderful, all their friends went there, and there was a huge emphasis on prayer. Now I have no problem with a huge emphasis on prayer, but the way she put it, they were looking for something that met Their needs. Church shouldn’t be about meeting Our needs. Church isn’t supposed to make us feel all spiritual and good. And this new church sounds non-denominational too; which basically means to me that they can pick and choose which doctrines they wish to believe instead of having to affirm all the doctrines their denomination approves. But anyhow, back to more or less on topic, I wish everybody could go to our church. I know that’s very subjective, but I truly wish it. When we moved to Michigan, we were “converted” from Baptist to Calvinist; a huge change. It is amazing to look back on it all and see God’s hand guiding us. We could have so easily became one of those families who went to a huge mega-church with a youth group and fluffy doctrine. [Side note: I will not elaborate here on why I don’t like youth groups—another blog post, another day.] I am so thankful to God for what He’s done to us in these past 6 years or so.
The second thing which saddens me is people who go to fairly strong churches (not ours, unfortunately) and make huge mistakes. One example that weighs heavy on my mind is an acquaintance of mine who I just found out is courting someone. The problem is that she’s 15-16 and has been “courting” for about 9 months now. Wait a minute! Isn’t courtship supposed to not happen until you’re ready for marriage? Who of us is ready to get married at 14-15? Clearly, this relationship is recreational only and therefore should be classified as dating and not courtship. [Side note: I will not here go into all the “evils of dating.” Suffice it to say that dating is preparation for divorce.] I also have two other sets of friends/acquaintances who are “courting” and although they are older, they are obviously not ready for marriage. It is so sad to see dating under the guise of courtship enter and become the norm for Christians. One has to be strong to go against the flow and have Biblical relationships. [Side note: I love these side notes! Ok, that was all......]
That’s all I have on my mind at this moment. My post has ended up longer than expected by myself, so I’m happy. I hope my writings have not offended or insulted anyone who has read this. If they have, please feel free to comment and complain. If they haven’t, please feel free to comment, ask questions, point something out you think I have missed, or compliment. I absolutely love getting responses from people. Adieu until next blog post.

Yours truly.

11 comments:

  1. RIGHT ON!!!! the only thing is, i don't think that many people could fit in your church ... bumer. Oh well, at least i'm fortunat to be a member of a good Bible-believing church that isn't afraid of telling the truth .. and does tell the truth. I see your point allready about youthgroups. My church has a youthgroup, but it's differant and i'll have to explain why sometime, but i do know all the same! my cousin goes to a "don't offend anyone" in other words, conform to the world around you believing youth group. And their service is basically a good message from the SINIOR pastor, and the rest is basically a rock concert. So i know, but only personally.

    Hey ... i can post now :-D

    Benji

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  2. First of all, that wasn't long. If you want long, go read a 4 part essay with 372 comments on Iron Ink. :-)

    Speaking of 4 parts, because of a character limit on the comment box, this is going to be a two part comment. :-)

    And my disclaimer for the following is that I'm not any kind of a scholar on these subjects, I only have opinions.

    The first comment is on the side note concerning the weighty topic of God's Sovereignty Vs. Free Will: "[Side note: This includes churches that teach that it is up to Us to reject or accept Christ and His Grace. This doctrine does not give God all his proper power, instead, it give Us power over God to reject or accept Him if we want.]"

    Now, we all agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient (or He wouldn't be God). Being such, he knows the best way to bring glory to himself, which we agree is the end goal of the universe. So, if God made it so that people have to choose whether to accept Him or reject Him, and by choosing not to choose, reject Him, that is for God's glory. And there's a good chance it's where He'll get the most glory.

    Along those lines, why did God allow sin to enter the world, and before that, his personal servants the angels? Was it so he could have something new to play with (the conflict of good and evil), or because people choosing Him out of free will would bring him glory? I certainly believe He didn't just create us to play with us. So, we need to go back to what the Bible says about it, but the Bible isn't as clear as it could be. I look at Revelation 3:20, but that's not a clear cut verse either.

    Like I said, I'm not a scholar on this and I don't have any rock solid arguments one way or the other. Being such, I have a hard time criticizing anyone who is prayerfully going to the Bible for their answers. And as such, I have no argument to criticize you, this is just my opinion. :-)

    The next part I'm commenting on is about churches: "And this new church sounds non-denominational too; which basically means to me that they can pick and choose which doctrines they wish to believe instead of having to affirm all the doctrines their denomination approves."

    The way you say that makes it sound bad (I'm not sure if you meant it that way, or not), but I think that it is a really good thing for people to think for themselves! Politically, I am an anti-federalist, as I believe in decentralized government. Socially, I am an Agrarian (in spirit, but unfortunately not in action), as I believe in decentralization of things like production (to an extent) and population (what happened to small town America?). Religiously, I go to a IFCA church (Independent Fundamental Churches of America), though for doctrinal issues more than for organizational reasons.

    And you know what? I don't wish everyone could go to my church. Capital C Church, yes! But local congregation? No.

    Ends part 1, look for part 2.

    Jonathan Potter

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  3. Begins part 2, look for part 1.

    Look at what is happening to many denominations in America and the world: they lack values, they tolerate things like evolution, abortion, and homosexuality, and endorse things like big government (socialism/communism), poor stewardship of resources, and (in my opinion, the most horrid of all) public education. Soon, they may be endorsing the things they tolerate.

    Seeing this weakness makes me wonder, is this what God really had in mind for the Church? When John wrote Revelation, were the churches in Ephesus and Sardis different denominations? I don't know. Look at the Catholic church in the middle ages, and how many evils were present there! That was the ultimate denomination!

    This might be a good place for my Andrew Bonar quote: "I looked for the church, and found it in the world. I looked for the world, and found it in the church." Truly sad.

    Ok, now that I've completely discouraged you with current events, here's some encouragement: God is still in control. Always has been, always will be. He works out everything for the good of those who love and serve him.

    He make arrangements for us that we would never even consider. And it works out for the best! Remember your history studies, and how God preserved His Word and the Church through persecution, times of trouble and times of plenty (which are sometimes more spiritually dangerous!), and through every kind of heresy! He's not going to let us down now!

    Oh, and thanks for writing for us. I enjoy reading your thoughts! Looking forward to post on Youth Groups and on the evils of Dating!

    Servo Fides!

    Jonathan Potter

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  4. Jonathan,

    I will first respond to your comment about free will vs. sovereignty.

    I think that we mostly agree on this issue. I tend to lean more towards the side that God is sovereign because, in the church today, I think free will is emphasized over God's sovereignty in most cases.

    Ultimately, God is sovereign. Ultimately, God knows and predestines our choices. So ultimately, I would say that we do not have free will. But I will use a simile to further illustrate what I mean. You may actually have heard this example before.

    Inside a story, the characters have "free will" to do what they want to do. But if you look outside the story, past the free will that we can see, you will see that it is the author who is writing the story who is the one choosing what the characters will do.

    But I also have some Bible verses. Matthew 22: 14 says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Not "but few choose." They are chosen.
    John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..."
    And also Ephesians 3: 3-14, which is too long to quote here but basically says that it is according to His good will that we are predestined for His glory.

    You asked whether God created us for His glory, or just to have something to play with. I absolutely agree with you that everything is for God's glory.

    That's all I have for now, I'll move on to the next section now! :D

    Rachel

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  5. I have to preface this by saying that I love theological debates, the reasons that people believe the things they do facsinate me. I happen to disagree with one or two of your points, and I don't wish to sound disrespectful, so I have a few questions I would like to ask you.
    First, what glory does God gain by forcing us to choose Him? (or not to choose Him)
    Second, what is the reason for the Great Commission, and what hope can we show the world, if no one has any choice?
    Third, If free will is not what we think it is, and God predestines all of our actions, like an author writing a story, how is it possible for God's people to sin? And why would He punish them for an action over which they had no control?
    I have no problem with the idea that whatever actions we take, God is able to bring good (and with that good, glory to Himself) from the results of those actions. Thus predestining us for His glory. (none of what I have said is meant to suggest that God is not sovereign, and I don't think that God's sovereignty and humanity's free will are at odds) I also believe that God is humble, not proud, it seems to me to be the course of a proud and unjust tyrant to force a people to worship him against their will. God is not willing that any should persish, but if someone truly wants nothing to do with Him, He will, eventually, give that person what they desire. This is what C.S. Lewis believed really sent people to hell, their desire to seperated from God.

    Lastly I would like to thank you for having the courage to say what you believe and allow others to disagree. I respect you for that stand, and I am very interested in what you have to say about the questions I have raised.

    -peace-

    P.S. I want to reiterate that I am not trying to attack your beliefs, I am merely interested in the reasons you hold them.

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  6. For a response to Josh

    see

    www.ironink.org

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  7. Hello Everybody,
    (I will answers the questions and rebuttals from the order of posting so there might be some redundancy)


    Jonathon
    “Now, we all agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient (or He wouldn't be God). Being such, he knows the best way to bring glory to himself, which we agree is the end goal of the universe”

    Anthony
    Yes, I totally agree, and I would like to add that the greatest good is the glorification of God.

    Jonathon
    “…why did God allow sin to enter the world?”

    Anthony J McAtee
    For His glory, or as R.C. Sproul says, sin entered the world so that we could see God’s great love and mercy and so recognize His true greatness.

    Jonathon
    “Was it so he could have something new to play with (the conflict of good and evil), or because people choosing Him out of free will would bring him glory?”

    Anthony
    I don’t quite understand the line of reasoning, what it sounds like you’re saying is that God allowed evil to enter the world and it wasn’t so he could play with the conflict of good and evil. Therefore it has to be that people choosing Him out of their free will would bring him glory. To my knowledge, that would be the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc—correlation does not prove causation. However, you are correct that God predestined evil to enter the world for His Glory.

    Jonathon
    So, we need to go back to what the Bible says about it, but the Bible isn't as clear as it could be. I look at Revelation 3:20, but that's not a clear cut verse either.)

    Anthony
    Revelation 3:20 is a passage that is written to the Church and not to those dead in trespasses and sins. In Rev. 3, the Church is being called to repent. Christ promises that if people respond in repentance (open the door) Christ will have communion with them (will sup with them). A very clear cut verse if approached from the right view point.

    Jonathon
    So, if God made it so that people have to choose whether to accept Him or reject Him, and by choosing not to choose, reject Him, that is for God's glory. And there's a good chance it's where He'll get the most glory.

    Anthony
    The Fall made it impossible for people—without the Holy Spirit first coming upon them to release them from the bondage of sin—to choose whether to accept or reject Christ. Since the Fall made this impossible and since men are dead in trespasses and sins, it is just not true that the advancing of such a theory would redound to God's glory.
    First, this is shown by the passages mentioned by Rachel- (quote) “Matthew 22: 14 says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Not "but few choose." They are chosen. John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." And also Ephesians 3: 3-14, which is too long to quote here but basically says that it is according to His good will that we are predestined for His glory.” (unquote)
    Second, Matthew 13:11-16, “And the disciples came, and said to him, ‘Why speak you to them in parables?’ He answered and said to them, ‘Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Jesus is saying here that they did not choose, but it was given) For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (without the Holy Spirit, they cannot see) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which said,
    ‘By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.’”

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  8. Third, Exodus 9:12; “And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he listened not to them; as the LORD had spoken to Moses.” 1 John 5:20; “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” (Stated loud and clear; Jesus has to first give us understanding before we can know him) Lastly Revelations 3:8a I know your works: behold, I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it: (This says that the church will go forward and NO MAN will stop it; if a man could choose, he could stop the advance.)
    After reading these passages, it seems quite obvious God gives and withholds the kingdom of heaven, (“Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given”) and hardens and softens hearts (“And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.”)

    Fourth, Isaiah 9:6-7; “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.” Notice how it says the “Lord of hosts will perform this”, not his human ambassadors, not by a man all of sudden saying “Ok, I accept”, but the Lord of hosts, Jesus the Messiah. How could God promise this if man could choose to accept him or reject him?

    Fifth, why do we pray “Thy Kingdom come”, if God has no sovereignty over that particular issue and has to wait just like a mere man to see what happens. Continuing, if a man can thwart God on that one issue then God is no longer sovereign. Also, if God wants me to be saved but I refuse him, He is no longer sovereign (as an example, “And the Lord appeared to Saul of Tarsus and Saul said ‘No, I refuse Thee.’”) God didn’t accomplish what he wanted, therefore I become god for I have the power to resist God, and God becomes “god” because He was too impotent to receive what He wanted. . In the end, the idea that God does not predestine is only an attempt of man trying to become god, even if it is a subconscious attempt.

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  9. Josh
    I have to preface this by saying that I love theological debates, the reasons that people believe the things they do fascinate me. I happen to disagree with one or two of your points, and I don't wish to sound disrespectful.

    Anthony
    So do I and neither do I.

    Josh.
    First, what glory does God gain by forcing us to choose Him? (or not to choose Him)

    Anthony
    Ask God, not me—but I am pretty sure He knows what he is doing. Anyways, do you think that God is not wise enough to elect the men that will bring Him the most glory? Do you think that it would be more glorifying to God for a sinful and totally depraved man to pick him out of his own free will? Personally, I would find it insulting if all a sudden, I had a bunch of murders, liars, and thieves worshiping me. How can a totally depraved man do something right by opening the door to God?

    Josh
    Second, what is the reason for the Great Commission, and what hope can we show the world, if no one has any choice?

    Anthony
    First of all, and most important of all, you are questioning God again, asking why he commanded us to do something. So again, I am pretty sure God knows the best way to bring glory to Himself, and that is the first and foremost reason why we should go out and preach the Word to every tribe, tongue, and nation. Also if God has chosen the saved elect to be tools to bring an elect to Christ, it is not our place to ask why He doesn’t do it Himself. We obey as a paintbrush obeys the Painter (you can be the one to tell God that it didn’t make any sense to follow his commands at Judgment day). Plus, we do not only go out to bring the elect to Christ, but to heap coals of fire on those that are reprobate, or as Christ said, “If you are not accepted in a city, when you leave shake the dust from your shoes and surely I promise you it will worse for that city in the day of judgment then it was for Sodom and Gomorrah.”

    Josh
    Third, If free will is not what we think it is, and God predestines all of our actions, like an author writing a story, how is it possible for God's people to sin?

    Anthony
    Because God predestined it. I would like to make a point here—God predestined evil, but He didn’t and doesn’t do evil. The only evil that God could do is glorify or worship some other being besides himself.

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  10. Josh
    And why would He punish them for an action over which they had no control?

    Anthony
    We do have a choice, just as Frodo had a choice whether or not to throw the Ring into the fire.

    Josh
    I have no problem with the idea that whatever actions we take, God is able to bring good (and with that good, glory to Himself) from the results of those actions. Thus predestining us for His glory. (none of what I have said is meant to suggest that God is not sovereign, and I don't think that God's sovereignty and humanity's free will are at odds.)

    Anthony
    As I said to Jonathan above, “Continuing, if a man can thwart God on that one issue then God is no longer sovereign. Also, if God wants me to be saved but I refuse him, He is no longer sovereign (as an example, “And the Lord appeared to Saul of Tarsus and Saul said ‘No, I refuse Thee.’”) God didn’t accomplish what he wanted, therefore I become god for I have the power to resist God, and God becomes “god” because He was too impotent to receive what He wanted. . In the end, the idea that God does not predestine is only an attempt of man trying to become god, even if it is a subconscious attempt.”
    Even if you do not suggest it, it still is the case that you cannot have man’s entirely free will and God’s ultimate sovereignty. Only God has ultimate free will, even the devil knows that even if he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

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  11. Josh
    I also believe that God is humble, not proud, it seems to me to be the course of a proud and unjust tyrant to force a people to worship him against their will.

    Anthony
    God is Proud there is no reason why He should not be Proud, moreover, it would be a sin for Him not to be Proud. We are His creatures He can do with us what he wills. For example, if you create a bookcase, it is within your right to destroy it or even force it to carry your books if you wish. Since men do not have the ability to accept God without the Holy Spirit first moving upon them, He would be quite Just in letting them all be damned. However since He is a great God who is merciful, loving, as well as just, He sent us His Spirit so we can be moved upon to love Him and escape eternal damnation. And again, you are right, if God was human, it would be unjust but God is God and therefore has a right to do whatever He wishes with His creatures.

    Josh
    God is not willing that any should persish, but if someone truly wants nothing to do with Him, He will, eventually, give that person what they desire

    Anthony
    Are you saying that even though God created and rules all things, he does not have the power to do what He desires and must submit to human desires? This makes man to be god.
    God does whatever he pleases and none can stop him. I would advise you to read Job where it shows what happens when man questions God’s will. A man does not judge God, God judges man.

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